Lockedsmoking after rebuild...

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thskilla0069
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2012/06/07 20:23:19 (permalink)

smoking after rebuild...

I just rebuilt my rancher 350.. bored it 1mm over. I put new rings and piston as well as valve seals and had the valves seated. It rode great memorial weekend. I kept it 4 feet under. the intake and exhaust is snorkeled but I noticed a little leak between exhaust and the snorkel. It never smoked the whole weekend and now I let it sit for 2 weeks and cranked it up and its smoking white smoke. this is a air cooled engine of course. I wonder if the packing in the exhaust is just burning out the water, but I would think that it would of evaporated after 2 weeks. don't seem to be any water in the oil and none in the intake box. any ideas?

2013 RZR 800 LE PS
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    thskilla0069
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 20:26:28 (permalink)
    on another note.. if i hold it mid throttle it pulses smoke.. its like it won't smoke then puff once every 3 or 4 seconds... thats what gets me.. wondering if water in gas tank or something

    2013 RZR 800 LE PS
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    2012 Can Am XMR
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    Sold - 01 350 Rancher 2" Lift Kit 23.5% Gear Reduction Snorkeled  30" Zillas on Chrome 14's
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    Rocketmanh5
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 20:30:09 (permalink)
    So the smoke is white and really not bluish tinted? Or could is it more gray on color. Is it a lot or some.

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    #3
    thskilla0069
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 20:32:43 (permalink)
    lol hey rocket.. umm well i have only got to see it in the last hour of dusk as I was loading it up.. it looked white like water smoke.. didn't smell like fuel or oil burning 

    2013 RZR 800 LE PS
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    OL2's on SS rims
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    2012 Can Am XMR
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    Warn 3000 and front/rear bumper
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    Sold - 01 350 Rancher 2" Lift Kit 23.5% Gear Reduction Snorkeled  30" Zillas on Chrome 14's
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    ProShopCustoms
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 20:49:04 (permalink)
    probly just a little left in the exhaust.

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    thskilla0069
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 20:52:34 (permalink)
    i hope so... if not.. im going to rering and sell it... still yet to find a bike that can handle constant running under water lol
     
    whoever says a honda is reliable hasn't let me ride it.. no matter what kind of bike I get.. i got constant work to do to it lol

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    INTOODEEP
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 20:57:31 (permalink)
    Why did you have to rebuild in the first place. Sometimes coloration of smoke can be hard to determine in any light much less low light situations.

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    thskilla0069
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 21:01:28 (permalink)
    i had to rebuild it because while i was swimming on it the bottom drain line on the carb popped off and flooded the carb with water.. and me being a few miles out I just ran the water through it.. back then I only had 27's on it so i kind of wanted to build it up a little to put bigger tires.. now with it 1 mm over and the gr it turns my 30's like a dream even in thick mud.. now i want some 32" backs on it.. but if it burns up the rings i going to have to get another cylinder since it can't be bored more than what its already at

    2013 RZR 800 LE PS
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    2012 Can Am XMR
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    2012 King Quad 750
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    Warn 3000 and front/rear bumper
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    Split tube speaker system
     
    Sold - 01 350 Rancher 2" Lift Kit 23.5% Gear Reduction Snorkeled  30" Zillas on Chrome 14's
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    hon450r
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 21:12:26 (permalink)
    If you didn't split the cases and clean/replace the oil cooler, that's your problem.

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    thskilla0069
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 21:15:01 (permalink)
    why do i have to split the cases and replace oil cooler to do a piston and ring job.. even when ir an the water through the carb it still didn't fill the oil with water

    2013 RZR 800 LE PS
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    OL2's on SS rims
    3 inch SATV lift
    HL floorboard kit
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    2012 Can Am XMR
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    Warn 3000 and front/rear bumper
    2 inch lift
    Split tube speaker system
     
    Sold - 01 350 Rancher 2" Lift Kit 23.5% Gear Reduction Snorkeled  30" Zillas on Chrome 14's
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    CTownForeMan
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/07 22:03:08 (permalink)
    Running water in the carb caused a rebuild? Was it originally smoking or you just wanted to go bigger?
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    Rocketmanh5
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 00:04:27 (permalink)
    Contaminated fuel(dirty muddy water) gets in carb etc. When bike finally fires up all that junk shoots into cylinders. The grit (even though not much) will find it's way in and do a number real quick on rings.. I would've never thought it could go to that extent until my buddy did it to his 350 and I had to rebuild it. Cylinder was scarred pretty bad. I'm a believer that just that can cause a rebuild.

    And he is referring back to splitting cases to clean them out well if you sunk the bike. No matter what even if it's not sunk I'll split the cases just to make sure that there is no problems that will arise from a grain on sand.

    What name piston did you use also, and what rings were with it?

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    Honda380
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 10:02:44 (permalink)
    How big is 1mm in standard units? cause my racher was bored 50 over before I had it rebuild again. 1mm doesnt sound like a whole lot to me but then again im not good on anything except standard. So to me it sounds like its not bored enough, but just my $.02
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    CTownForeMan
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 10:07:46 (permalink)
    Yours was bored .50mm over.  His is 1mm over.  Twice as much as yours.  Boring one that much does not give you incredible power increase. 
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 10:51:58 (permalink)
    O ok I got ya. Wow I feel stupid now.
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    zillad3004x4
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 11:03:05 (permalink)
    Rocketmanh5

    Contaminated fuel(dirty muddy water) gets in carb etc. When bike finally fires up all that junk shoots into cylinders. The grit (even though not much) will find it's way in and do a number real quick on rings.. I would've never thought it could go to that extent until my buddy did it to his 350 and I had to rebuild it. Cylinder was scarred pretty bad. I'm a believer that just that can cause a rebuild.

    And he is referring back to splitting cases to clean them out well if you sunk the bike. No matter what even if it's not sunk I'll split the cases just to make sure that there is no problems that will arise from a grain on sand.

    What name piston did you use also, and what rings were with it?

     
    LOL, man it sounds yall are very precautious. On my 300's, and foreman 450's I wont rebuild until It starts to smoke and run bad... But then again, after a few drinks in me I have a tendency to crank bikes under water and what not...


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    GreatNate
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 11:04:57 (permalink)
    was it .5mm over? or .050" over? 
    .020" is equal to .5mm
    .040" is 1mm
    .050" is a little over 1mm.

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    Honda380
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 11:07:45 (permalink)
    Mine? it was 30 over the first time then 50 over the second and now im back to standard bore with a new cylinder for the third.
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    spartanhonda300
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/08 13:37:18 (permalink)
    you can or should be able to go more than one mill over i know a 300 can go 2mm for sure 
     

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    Rocketmanh5
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/09 00:48:52 (permalink)
    Yes zilla, very. But I'm too cautious to just do a top end and slap it back together. I'm weird but I'd rather junk be safe then sorry. And probably with exhaust under water+beer bikes would tend to deteriorate real fast ha.

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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/09 03:23:48 (permalink)
    so was did water get into the engine whenever the carb got water? did it die and flooded the motor? if you did a rebuild and didnt flush theh oil cooler it will also retain any water or foreign debris, mud, sand etc. and will eat the rings again in no time also as stated above not splitting the cases on most of the newer honda motors especially ranchers youll never get the motor 100% cleaned out by flushing

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    Jake450s
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/09 05:39:33 (permalink)
    If you've got a fresh top end that's smoking, you've got to figure out why.  Good suggestions here, but there's too many "could be", "might be" things to be shooting silver bullets at it.  You've got to diagnose it.  If you want to know for sure if it's water in the pipe, then unhitch it.  The header pipe doesn't hold water... That'd be spectacular if it were that simple....  I would not do anything further until you make that simple check. 
     
    The first thing I read between the lines here is that you put in a 1.00 oversize piston, and got a noticeable power increase.  Stock compression, right?  If you had a test track and monitoring equipment you could note a power increase from that, but by the seat of your pants, there is not a noteworthy power increase from increasing the bore that little.  On the other hand, if you're comparing it to a stock piston that is not overbored in any way, and is worn badly enough to not be producing the power that it should have been....  Then even a brand new stock OEM top end in the same bore would be a very big increase in power.  So I would expect that the event which has been blamed for destroying the engine did not actually destroy it, but rather just put a tired engine over the edge.  If it even did that.  Water through the top end (in small enough amounts to NOT cause any hydrolocking) almost always passes right through without incident.  The carb might be plugged to crap, probably with "hard" blockages that are difficult to remove, but that's where the damage stops.  Usually.....  For a whole top end to get wiped out from a wet carb, you need a LOT more water than what you ever got through a main jet.
     
    With all your new parts, and a good cylinder finish (which would be an assumption....) for a bike to start smoking after a couple of hours of riding...  Rings upside down, top and second ring reversed, the cylinder scored from assembly if the piston, rings, and cylinder wall weren't prelubed, a dirty lower end of the engine, or if I'm reading right (and depending on the actual cylinder/piston fit) breaking in a fresh engine in under water can even do that.   Course those are all under throttle as is your description, but it really doesn't "puff" smoke, it's steady.  By the nature of riding in water, and the difficulty in finding a lightly to moderately "swamped" engine at the time it happens, that leaves me thinking that would be your silver bullet.  Swamped engine.  There is a trouble spot with that however, in that I'm not coming up with a whole lot of internal stuff that could be intermittant enough to see the "puff".  That leaves me some doubt as to this being a worst case scenario.  Hence the need to absolutely verify the pipe is not the culprit before digging in.  You might also drain out a fuel sample from the RES setting and see if you don't find a pinch of something other than gasoline.  Usually that will show up as driveability long before you see steam, but it's too easy to be 100 percent sure, there's no sense in guessing.
     
    So, all the parts are good, installed correctly, there was NO mechanical problems with the install, then why could it have failed so soon?  Assuming it is (and it may be but you're not there yet until you prove it...) Running in a new engine under water is tough, because the top of the ridges in the cross hatching havn't been properly knocked back yet (breaking in), the water keeps the cylinder very very cold, yet the piston is inside, isolated from the cold, it stays hot.  The fitment between the piston and the jug changes, it gets too tight.  The added friction, the lack of a smooth surface for the rings to slide on, the reduced oil (cooling) on the skirt, it adds up and causes the piston to be way hotter than it should have been which compounds what's going on...  It does not automatically happen, but when it reaches that threshold where the actual fitment with the different temperatures becomes a problem, it snowballs, and it's all over but the crying....
     
    Another option is the dirty lower end issue.  You said you've never seen water in there, and you're probably right.  But seeing water is very different from water being in there.  The thing is, copious amounts of water will make the oil cloudy or milky, however small amounts are not visible.  Even small amounts over a large timeframe.  The engine is hot however, water evaporates relatively quickly, it goes right out the crankcase vent completely unseen.  Water vapor is a normal content of the blowby gas as well as the regular engine exhaust.  Hydrocarbons and oxygen break down to carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, the hydrogen that's left over goes to H20 among others...)  That's in the blowby gas, but you never see that in the oil.  It's also clean water.  But, when swamp water, lake water, stream water (in small to moderate amounts) enters the engine oil and then evaporates you have no clue that it was there, but the fact that there is an ATV being operated in that water means it's dirty water.  That's what kills an engine.  The water evaporates (maybe even as fast is it comes in), but the dirt, silt, and other little lovelies that float around in it, they don't evaporate.  They build up over time.
     
    So, in the worst case, the top is torn up again...  Don't panic.  The 1.00 overbore (I think, havn't looked) is the biggest stock bore, but it's not all over yet.  Nobody's mic'ed that yet since it's still together, if it's not all scored up it probably only needs a hone and rings.  Maybe a piston.  Only inspection and measurement will tell.  Depending how loose the machine shop set it up, barring an actual deep scratch, you can actually hone a new finish (cross hatches) into a jug without taking it out of spec.  If they're short lived engines, you can often do this several times provided you're not overdoing it with the hone.  Honda's stock parts like a very fine stone...  600 grit is awesome.  You can get away with the ones from the discount auto parts store, but they're a lot coarser (200 grit is common) but the oil control is not as good, and in a worst case event the finish is not as durable when it comes to surviving "incidents". 
     
    What's that mean to you right now?  Not a lot yet, but if your diagnosis leads you to suspect this, and if knocking off a front cover confirms a buildup of stuff that shouldn't be built up in there...  Then the engine needs to come apart and be cleaned out piece by piece.  Without exception, every piece needs to be taken down to it's smallest component, cleaned thoroughly, and reassembled with new gaskets and seals.  Every external seal is suspect and should be changed  Especialy the rear crank seal, that is a favorite.  Sealed or eliminated rope starters are great, but they're not infallible.  Worn parts need to be replaced of course, but for the most part cleaning up a swamped engine means just cleaned.  All oil passages in the block, jug, and head as well as the oil cooler lines need to be flushed, and the oil cooler needs to be changed.  They don't "flush" well at all, and continuously release little nasties at random times for as long as you own them. 
    Keep in mind too, the oil filter is necessary, and helps a great deal, but it's not able to fix a dirty engine.  It is not a full flow filter, most of the oil bypasses it.  It is also not a spectacularly fine filter.  OEM is about as fine of a media as you'll be able to get, but even that is not sufficient if there's swamp silt in there.  The absolute most destructive chunkies floating around in there are small enough to pass through the filter unrestricted.  Those are the ones that wipe out rings.  Bigger chunks (beach sand) find a spot to settle out and just live there.  The stuff you can't see, that would float around in the air as dust if it was dry, that's what you're the most worried about.
    #22
    machineman350
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    Re:smoking after rebuild... 2012/06/09 06:34:05 (permalink)
    ^^^ What he said

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