LockedDIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle

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jasong
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2012/10/03 16:17:38 (permalink)

DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle

Inspired by ctownforeman  http://forum.highlifter.com/fb.ashx?m=4680624 I set out to build a whopper of an axle paddle for my 1999 Foreman 400.
 
 
For the non geeks / engineers feel free to skip to here: http://forum.highlifter.com/fb.ashx?m=4815525
   
 
The geek / engineer side of me started with the load calcs.
 
Check them out here https://docs.google.com/o...FsuTCUYSTRjRkJPMUVUSjg
The spreadsheet is designed for drive couplings on electrical motors, but I modified the load and safety factors for this application. https://docs.google.com/o...FsuTCUYZWptdWcwaEhCSWs
 
The next step was locating a pipe with the correct inside diameter.
For the Foreman 400 a 1" schedule 80 ID is 0.93. The axle is 0.95. Close enough for standard production tolerances to achieve >80% contact.

DO NOT USE Schedule 40 !

[EDIT] For those with other axle sizes, use this chart http://www.engineersedge.com/pipe_schedules.htm to find a close but slightly smaller size. If its thick enough it can be bored to the correct size for much less than cutting solid stock. Note: Start with the O.D. and subtract the thickness 2X [/EDIT]

With all respect to ctownforeman, the thickness will not be an issue for the following reasons:

(1) With a hollow cylinder the stress is carried mostly on the inner layer. This is why the root pass on a pipe weld is the most critical.
(2) The paddles will act as a stiffener to prevent the pipe from bowing. Essentially it it a solid 4" chunk of metal due to the stiffeners.
 
Then I went and started buying the pieces. It amazed me how many shops and salvage yards will not cut small pieces. Cash in hand !
Then I found www.metalsupermarkets.com if you are near Charlotte NC or Greer SC they are beyond belief ! If not, they ship.
They specialize in small cuts of odd metals. I spent a lot of time searching for 1" sch80, Grainger had it but was very proud of their nipples.
Long story short short, I bought all of the below for under $30. Even with the bolts from Lowes, I may not have cracked $30.
 
(4) 3/8" X 4" flat bar 6" long
(2) 1/4" X 1.25" flat bar 4" long
(1') 1" sch80 pipe (bought a foot for future use)
(1') 1/4" X  2" Flat bar (laying around)
 
From Lowes :
(8) 5/16" X 1.5" Galvanized bolts
(8) 5/16" nuts
(8) 5/16" lock washers
The reason for using 1.5" long bolts is to avoid having threads in the shear plane.
If you have no idea what that means, trust me, it's bad structurally.
 
Next, build pics !
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by jasong - 2012/10/03 19:00:53
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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/03 16:40:54 (permalink)
    OK

    You will need:
    Jack
    Blocks of wood or jack stand
    32mm socket and impact for removing the axle
    10mm, 14mm and 17mm sockets
     
    Start by jacking up the rear and removing the tires
     
    Realize that wont work as you will need to remove the bolts that hold the right axle tube to the swingarm in order to remove the center, cut out section.
     
    Jack ATV up from the frame
    Remove the right hub and brake
    Pull the axle out
    Cut the axle tube against the right swing arm. A Porta-band would be useful here
    Take a break
     
    It should now separate like this
    Hmmm, should've cleaned the clay out of the skid plates before taking these pictures........
     
    While you have everything apart, check the left axle bearing. It's probably shot.
    Order a new 32X58X13 bearing and a 42X58X10 seal before starting this. Hmm, should've told you that earlier. Oh well, ask me for refund
     
     
    post edited by jasong - 2012/10/03 16:57:47
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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/03 17:14:13 (permalink)
    After a hard weekend ride with no hitch mount getting hung up on stuff, the improvement is already noticeable.
    Getting rid of the hitch alone is worth the time involved.
     
    As Ctownforeman stated, there are no issues with removing the center section of the axle tube.
    We went up steep hills, over rocks and logs, and a few small jumps with no discernible deflection.
    My brother behind me was keeping an eye on things.
     
    Now, back to the paddle.......
     
    First, using a band saw, split the sch80 pipe down the center for 4"
    Then, cut a 4" piece off of it.
    Do not try splitting a 4" long piece as you will have nothing to hold on to

    Those of you familiar with standard sch40 pipe will notice the extra wall thickness.
     
    Next, using the 45° side of a square, layout some angle gussets from the 1.25" and 1.5"flat bar.
    Be sure to leave a flat spot to go past the pipe. Do not make triangles.

     
    If you are using a MIG welder, be sure to buff off all of the metal. MIGs like clean metal.
     
    Start by laying it out as shown above. Tack all the pieces up first.
    I always forget the 'tacked up' photo.
     
    Here is what it should look like when welded out.
    Not my best work but it was late.
     
    Some of the welds were a bit cold, but I purposely left a gap to ensure good penetration.
     
     
    #3
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/03 17:38:07 (permalink)
    Now it's time to get out the drill.
    Run a line centered on the 1.5" flat bar and layout (4) 21/64" holes, 5/8" and 1 1/4" from edges. [EDIT] The holes were too close together. My 3/8" drive socket fit but they were too tight for my 1/2" drive socket. Try 9/16" and 1 5/16"  [/EDIT]

     
    Next drill only ONE hole through each of the 3/8" paddles.
    Bolt the pieces to the axle using the opposite corners.
    Drill the remaining six holes using the axle to keep everything straight  https://lh6.googleusercon...09-30%252015.22.45.jpg [Pic issue ]
     
    Coat the pieces with Ospho or the rust converter of your choice.
    Follow with some tractor paint or appliance epoxy.
    Bolt them to the axle.
     
    Sit back and enjoy the finished product
    post edited by jasong - 2012/10/03 17:59:50
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    4man500
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/03 18:52:56 (permalink)
    Amazingly detailed build thread.  It's nice to see what good planning can do . Call me clueless, but how does mud and junk keep from getting into the diff on the side next to the paddle??

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    rrsi_duke
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/03 19:10:01 (permalink)
    there is a seal there, so it will have to be checked after every ride. and if too sandy even during the ride if I had to guess.  
     
    Bolting it around the axle would it not spin once in a heavy bind?  just wondering

    THA DUKE BOYZ
    1995 Tan 300, 54%, 29.5 ol s/w, dual axle paddles, 350d rear end, brute shocks, arched lower a-arms, and a 96 parts bike
     
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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/04 06:11:23 (permalink)
    According to my calculations it develops over 2000 KSI and should hold 25hp of force with a high shock factor.
    I'm guessing that's close to the total engine output.
    #7
    RANCHERBOY102
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/04 06:21:10 (permalink)
    very nice job man.

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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/05 20:28:51 (permalink)
    Well, I got in one of those let's be safe moods and retorqued the bolts.
    Bad idea.
    I used galvanized bolts thinking they would resist rust better.
    Snapped one off.
    Bet they weren't even grade 3.
     
    Bought a set of grade 8 bolts and nuts from Lowe's for $7.51
    Mistake learned.
     
    post edited by jasong - 2012/10/06 06:41:27
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    asd59878
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/05 22:38:11 (permalink)
    Soooooo

    I still don't see how it bolts on to the actual axle and keep from slipping lol

    300 honda, it's nasty.
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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/06 06:54:43 (permalink)
    The bolts provide compression on the two pipe halves
    This clamps them tightly to the axle shaft
    Last night i took it for a quick spin.
    drove over a railroad tie that i use to load it in the back of the truck
    It walked right down it with no issues
    Then i rolled out a log that was too high to clear
    It took some work getting the Foreman on the log, lots of side to side rocking
    Once the paddle got to the log, the rear hopped right up and it went lump-lump-lump down the log
    Theat was fun so i did it a few more times, but hitting the log faster so the front half ramped all the way up the log :
    Back in the barn, the paint mark on the axle showed no sign of slipping
    Life will keep me from a hard trail and mud ride until the 20th.
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    Jake450s
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/06 11:20:26 (permalink)
    jasong

    Well, I got in one of those let's be safe moods and retorqued the bolts.
    Bad idea.

     
    It was an excellent idea.  You found your mistake.  If it's a torquing issue, a re-torquing issue, a torquing equipment issue, I just can't say.  But new bolts don't "just break", even when torquing by feel.  Something's amiss and that is in all reality (aside from some specific compressable gaskets) what the re-torque recommendation is all about.  Eliminating unforseen variables by "resetting" them over a period of time.
     
    jasong
    I used galvanized bolts thinking they would resist rust better.
    Snapped one off.
    Bet they weren't even grade 3.

     
    Galvanized...?  Unless they came from a specialty supplier then they were grade two.  The answer is marked on both the bolts and and nuts.  Washers, shims, and specialized fasteners not so much so.  But on hex head cap screws and standard hex nuts, they're marked.
    If you're not positive as to what they were, then how tight to you suppose they need to be to achieve their rated clamp load?
     
    jasong
    Bought a set of grade 8 bolts and nuts from Lowe's for $7.51
    Mistake learned.

     
    Those will break too if you're applying 2000 ksi.  On a bolt that size, if you found one strong enough, you'd need a four or five foot cheater pipe to achieve that kind of tension.    Grade eight yields at 130 to 150 ksi.  Grade 2 is 57 to 74 ksi, but reduce that significantly for the galvanized finish which weakens them, and you'll never achieve a good clamp load because the turning friction of the coating (and the degraded surface layer under that) becomes too high, you'll "twist it off" before you ever achieve the theoretical clamp load.  The ones at the big box stores (spec'ed with inventory numbers on them...) seldom make the grade they are indicated to be.  Notably less force to cause deformation than name brand bolts of the same nominal dimensions.  The finish is pretty inconsistant too, you get notoriously inconsistent clamp loads at varying torque application settings.
     
    Your grade 8 bolts that you have now...  24 foot pounds will get you about 4700 pounds of clamp force per bolt if you've got clean and dry threads, and the coating is undamaged. (zinc chromate right?  Gold colored?) If it's damaged, put a drop of oil on the threads and use 18 foot pounds.  Anything over 30 foot pounds (24 oiled) is reducing the clamp load and actual strength of the bolt...
     
    If those don't hold up (and they might well hold up....  but you're "using" every bit of them), then the next step is what that application "wanted" in the first place.  Frame bolts.  Grade 8, hex flange head (bolt AND nut), black oxide finish, fine threads...  Your clamp load can be up in the high 6000, low 7000 pound range per bolt  If your plates havn't sprung together, that'll put you into a plastic stage on gusseted parts of the pipe, the extra 30 percent of clamp load will probably about double the "twisting resistance".
     
    I'lm watching carefully though.  This thread and the other.  The paddle it's self could be done a hundred ways (although I kind of like yours for it's simplicity).  I'm more concerned with the right side of the axle tube and the right "arm" of the swingarm.  I saw both of you guys had some initial observations that sounded promising, but if you have any notes of observations about that over time, I'm very interested.
     
     
    #12
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/06 14:38:38 (permalink)
    Thanks Jake450s !

    The 2000ksi was for the plate clamp force
    When i torqued the grade8 bolts, I did 27 ft/lbs
    If I increase the safety margin, tha calculator says 3/8" bolts. I may redrill for them to be safe.
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    Jake450s
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/07 08:47:34 (permalink)
    First of all let me be 100 percent clear......  If I over think this, and 99 percent of the world under thinks this, then hopefully a couple of folks reading this post will find a happy medium, consider this just a little more carefully than they would have, and have their projects come out a little bit better whether they are "technically correct" or not.... 
     
    jasong
    The 2000ksi was for the plate clamp force

     
    No it wasn't.  I can almost picture how you came to that conclusion, but it has nothing to do with the plate's clamp force.  (Actually it does, but there's a LOT of calculation to get from one to the other)  ksi is s shorthand for PSI times 1000.  That is, 150 ksi is 150,000 psi.  That is pounds per square inch.  That is relative to the material in question, which is in this case, the square inches of the bolt material which are in tension.  You can not add ksi for additional bolts, because the square inches increase proportionally with the increased force, so when you divide them it always comes out the same.  What you are interested in  is "clamp load".  You've got 5/16 bolts there.  The smallest diameter (weakest link) will ALWAYS be the root diameter, or the cross section between the lowest part of the threads.  In this case, 0.243 inches (much less than 5/16 of an inch.  so each bolt offers 0.046 square inches.  (A LOT less than the 0.076 square inches you'd assume from the nominal dimension of the screw).  150,000psi (150ksi) applied to 0.046 inches gives a THEORETICAL 6900 pounds of clamping force under the bolt.  Realistically that won't happen, that's why there's charts instead of formulas.  The psi for the steel is simply the biggest variable in play.  That's what makes the force number bigger.  All other variables make the force smaller.
    If you look at the root diameter of a fine threaded bolt (which frame bolts all are, with good reason) you'll find it's a good deal larger than a coarse threaded one because the threads are not "cut" as deep.  The area across one of those would be .0.53 inches, so you get a lot more strength.  The fine thread gives the nut a lot more "pull" at any given force.  Less PSI goes into "twisting the bolt off" (remember, force goes into the bolt in EVERY direction, not just the direction you want.  That's why you can't get theoretical clamp loads on most fasteners).  More force goes in a straight line this way.  The black oxide coating helps greatly with this, as well as being less detremental to the outer layer(s) of the parent metal. 
    Then you have the piece it's self.  It's not made of a hardened material, so you have to consider that.  It has to bear all of this force directly under that little raised circle underneath the hex head of a regular bolt.  The bolt can only be just so much harder than the material being joined, otherwise the strength becomes irrelevent because it makes a "dimple", which releases the joint just a couple of thousandths of an inch (which is HUGE when you consider how short the elastic stage of a bolt is).  That's where the flange heads come in.  A larger load bearing area so that softer materials can support a higher clamp load under the bolt head.  Look at when/where Honda (or any other manufacturer) uses these, and where they don't.  (Flange bolts/nuts that is.  They don't use many oxide treated fasteners, and thread pitch is selected based on the job at hand).
     
    jasong
    When i torqued the grade8 bolts, I did 27 ft/lbs
    If I increase the safety margin, tha calculator says 3/8" bolts. I may redrill for them to be safe.

     
    "Member what I said above?  The bolts you have might just work?  Well, apparently they did not but I bert they were real close....  I still say that 5/16 frame bolts would be more correct and appropriate, but 3/8 cap screws and standard nuts would prolly get the job done nicely, even if they're not as correct.  I bet they're a lot more available if you don't have a fastener supply place right next door.
     
    Now before this goes TOO far into better bolts....  Don't forget the original design.  I've got to make some assumptions here without measurement, so without a micrometer and without exacting materials standards right in front of me...  When you step up from the 5/16-18 bolts, (my way or your way) you have a new issue to consider.  If you make the "ears" touch the paddles", then at that point you can stop adding clamp load.  You will technically have more pressure in the joint, but you will no longer be applying additional pressure to the interface between the paddle hub and the axle.  That's where it needs to be.  At that time when the ears make contact, all the extra force you come up with becomes irrelevant to the clamp force at the axle.
     
    If I were doing this, I'd clamp all I could (without contact at the joints) and from there my goal would be to add friction and/or adhesion in between the axle and the paddle hub for better grip at lower combined clamp loads.  That would involve knowing exactly how the hub fits.  What parts are under what pressure.  The exact ID and the exact OD, the interference fit (which hopefully there is) or any looseness that's taken up by the saw cuts, which sets how much of the internal area can support what part of the clamp load, and what part (at the sides) will impart their own "pinch" on the sides of the axle facing the bolted joints.  Lots of variables still in play and lots of possible solutions to any of them.  But whatever you do, don't let me get you too hung up on the bolts unless your observations indicate that the bolts are actually what needs upgrading.  You do have another key factor in play.
    #14
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/09 06:13:48 (permalink)
    Thanks Jake
    My engineering knowledge is mostly electrical, I really appreciate the structural help
    I plan to pull it apart this week and check the contact points to see how they look
    If my welding didnt warp anything, there should be around 2 thousanths interference fit on the parts
    There is aprox 1/16-1/8" gap between the ears and the paddles, so no issue there
    I probably should measure that in case i need to bolt it together off of the axle to have it bored to re-true it.
    Do you have any suggestions for increasing the friction at the interface ?
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    Jake450s
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/11 19:34:14 (permalink)
    The interference fit is ALL the way around?  As in, you have to "squish" the parts into place?   OOOhhh that's so close....  The redneck in me would probably be tempted to grease the inside of the pipe halves with a bit of valve lapping compound.  If that didn't do it, clean the compound with a residue free solvent, and all that "fresh" metal at the interface outta take on a bit of rust in short order  That builds dimension and texture.
     
    The next easiest option (which you may or may not be comfortable with) is to run a tall narrow weld bead (not very deep.....) along the axle about where you want the seam in the tubing to be.  Fillet (or chamfer I guess?) the inside edge of the tube so that it sits over the weld, without interfering with the clamping in any way.
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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/11 20:31:35 (permalink)
    Jake
    I was planning on disassembling it this weekend to check the contact points
    I like the lapping compound idea

    I really like the weld bead idea.
    It could "grab" the gap between the two halves with no need to create a groove
    This would provide a key of sorts yet still allow removal
    Any opinion on the axle being hardened
    Sort of doubt it is........
    #17
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/21 08:13:10 (permalink)
    Went for a ride yesterday

    Muahahaha!
    The place we go was fairly dry so we could see the paddle's action on the dry ruts
    After goung up a few I looked back and could see a V shaped gouge every 7" or so.
    On the main trail i made the mistake of stradling a loose rock. As it passed under me I heard a "PING" sound
    Pulled over to check the paddle, it was fine. Then i looked at the rock, there was a black mark and a chunk was knocked out of it like a sledge hit it.

    There is a series of mud holes that can get rutted up pretty badly
    Well a guy with 29" OLs wet through them in 2WD and tore them so badly he got stuck and had to get pulled out
    After i pulled him out I did a "watch this" the second i sunk to the paddle it was instant traction
    made 4 passes back and forth
    The guys said with the water pushed away they could see the paddle chewing the center of the rut up
    after those passes, a sport quad could've made it through.

    I now call the paddle "rut buster"
    Today I will check for any shaft spinning.

    #18
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/10/22 08:59:46 (permalink)
    Quick update
    Cleaned off the shaft and my paint mark hasnt budged
    looks like there is no spinning issues
    With what it went through this weekend, I'd say it passes.
    #19
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/11/02 14:21:18 (permalink)
    Update
    I can confirm what Ctownforeman stated about the open axle tube not being a problem
    Our last ride involved lots of mud and water, including a time i sat in some oatmeal for a while sunk to my fenders in goo.(stepped off and sunk past my waist)
    The differential shows no signs of water intrusion
    The mud pretty much drained itself out of the right side tube.
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    zillad3004x4
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/02 23:34:20 (permalink)
    Well, figured I would pull this one up for a little while. After seeing ctowns in person and doing ALOT of r&d, my 300 is getting torn down for a center paddle setup similar to this... Stay tuned for a thread...

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    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/04 18:54:29 (permalink)
    Post a link, I cant wait to see it.
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    86honda350
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/04 19:23:12 (permalink)
    I'm also gonna do something like it here soon but I'm gonna do front and rear paddles!
    #23
    asd59878
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/04 20:36:20 (permalink)
    ^ front and rear are going to be sick lol

    300 honda, it's nasty.
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    #24
    dcfox
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/04 20:47:33 (permalink)
    Jake450s

    First of all let me be 100 percent clear......  If I over think this, and 99 percent of the world under thinks this, then hopefully a couple of folks reading this post will find a happy medium, consider this just a little more carefully than they would have, and have their projects come out a little bit better whether they are "technically correct" or not.... 

    jasong
    The 2000ksi was for the plate clamp force


    No it wasn't.  I can almost picture how you came to that conclusion, but it has nothing to do with the plate's clamp force.  (Actually it does, but there's a LOT of calculation to get from one to the other)  ksi is s shorthand for PSI times 1000.  That is, 150 ksi is 150,000 psi.  That is pounds per square inch.  That is relative to the material in question, which is in this case, the square inches of the bolt material which are in tension.  You can not add ksi for additional bolts, because the square inches increase proportionally with the increased force, so when you divide them it always comes out the same.  What you are interested in  is "clamp load".  You've got 5/16 bolts there.  The smallest diameter (weakest link) will ALWAYS be the root diameter, or the cross section between the lowest part of the threads.  In this case, 0.243 inches (much less than 5/16 of an inch.  so each bolt offers 0.046 square inches.  (A LOT less than the 0.076 square inches you'd assume from the nominal dimension of the screw).  150,000psi (150ksi) applied to 0.046 inches gives a THEORETICAL 6900 pounds of clamping force under the bolt.  Realistically that won't happen, that's why there's charts instead of formulas.  The psi for the steel is simply the biggest variable in play.  That's what makes the force number bigger.  All other variables make the force smaller.
    If you look at the root diameter of a fine threaded bolt (which frame bolts all are, with good reason) you'll find it's a good deal larger than a coarse threaded one because the threads are not "cut" as deep.  The area across one of those would be .0.53 inches, so you get a lot more strength.  The fine thread gives the nut a lot more "pull" at any given force.  Less PSI goes into "twisting the bolt off" (remember, force goes into the bolt in EVERY direction, not just the direction you want.  That's why you can't get theoretical clamp loads on most fasteners).  More force goes in a straight line this way.  The black oxide coating helps greatly with this, as well as being less detremental to the outer layer(s) of the parent metal. 
    Then you have the piece it's self.  It's not made of a hardened material, so you have to consider that.  It has to bear all of this force directly under that little raised circle underneath the hex head of a regular bolt.  The bolt can only be just so much harder than the material being joined, otherwise the strength becomes irrelevent because it makes a "dimple", which releases the joint just a couple of thousandths of an inch (which is HUGE when you consider how short the elastic stage of a bolt is).  That's where the flange heads come in.  A larger load bearing area so that softer materials can support a higher clamp load under the bolt head.  Look at when/where Honda (or any other manufacturer) uses these, and where they don't.  (Flange bolts/nuts that is.  They don't use many oxide treated fasteners, and thread pitch is selected based on the job at hand).

    jasong
    When i torqued the grade8 bolts, I did 27 ft/lbs
    If I increase the safety margin, tha calculator says 3/8" bolts. I may redrill for them to be safe.


    "Member what I said above?  The bolts you have might just work?  Well, apparently they did not but I bert they were real close....  I still say that 5/16 frame bolts would be more correct and appropriate, but 3/8 cap screws and standard nuts would prolly get the job done nicely, even if they're not as correct.  I bet they're a lot more available if you don't have a fastener supply place right next door.

    Now before this goes TOO far into better bolts....  Don't forget the original design.  I've got to make some assumptions here without measurement, so without a micrometer and without exacting materials standards right in front of me...  When you step up from the 5/16-18 bolts, (my way or your way) you have a new issue to consider.  If you make the "ears" touch the paddles", then at that point you can stop adding clamp load.  You will technically have more pressure in the joint, but you will no longer be applying additional pressure to the interface between the paddle hub and the axle.  That's where it needs to be.  At that time when the ears make contact, all the extra force you come up with becomes irrelevant to the clamp force at the axle.

    If I were doing this, I'd clamp all I could (without contact at the joints) and from there my goal would be to add friction and/or adhesion in between the axle and the paddle hub for better grip at lower combined clamp loads.  That would involve knowing exactly how the hub fits.  What parts are under what pressure.  The exact ID and the exact OD, the interference fit (which hopefully there is) or any looseness that's taken up by the saw cuts, which sets how much of the internal area can support what part of the clamp load, and what part (at the sides) will impart their own "pinch" on the sides of the axle facing the bolted joints.  Lots of variables still in play and lots of possible solutions to any of them.  But whatever you do, don't let me get you too hung up on the bolts unless your observations indicate that the bolts are actually what needs upgrading.  You do have another key factor in play.

     
    All I can say is...


    --David -- 
     --------------------------------------
     
    "Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?" -Vaas


    #25
    zillad3004x4
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/04 21:10:36 (permalink)
    I actually have a design drawn up from several years ago for a front paddle. Problem is it would have been very hard on a front diff and inner cv's. But since a Gear reduction has been introduced since my last 300, I may want to rethink the front paddle idea...

    14 ranger 900: backwoods forward arms, roof,29.5 swamplites, little LED lighting, viper 5k, custom bumper
    #26
    86honda350
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/05 06:37:03 (permalink)
    Well mines solid front axle like the rear, it'll be the same design just on the front
    #27
    poporzr4x4
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/05 19:07:40 (permalink)
    @dcfox... Lmao!!! Epic answer!!!

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    #28
    jasong
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/05 20:29:55 (permalink)
    Yeah, Jake450s and I geek-ed out on the math a bit
    It's just a way of using a calculator to lessen trial and error.
    He went for the pure math, I short-cutted to the tables.
    In the end there is so much safety margin in the tables it will be fine.
     
    Translation for @poporzr4x4:
    We dun beat it till it broke, then put in bigger uns.
    5/16" aint broke yet, but 3/8" would werk fer sure.
     
     
     
    #29
    dmanMus
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    Re:DIY Honda Foreman 400 Centered Axle Paddle 2012/12/05 20:32:40 (permalink)
    dcfox

    Jake450s

    First of all let me be 100 percent clear......  If I over think this, and 99 percent of the world under thinks this, then hopefully a couple of folks reading this post will find a happy medium, consider this just a little more carefully than they would have, and have their projects come out a little bit better whether they are "technically correct" or not.... 

    jasong
    The 2000ksi was for the plate clamp force


    No it wasn't.  I can almost picture how you came to that conclusion, but it has nothing to do with the plate's clamp force.  (Actually it does, but there's a LOT of calculation to get from one to the other)  ksi is s shorthand for PSI times 1000.  That is, 150 ksi is 150,000 psi.  That is pounds per square inch.  That is relative to the material in question, which is in this case, the square inches of the bolt material which are in tension.  You can not add ksi for additional bolts, because the square inches increase proportionally with the increased force, so when you divide them it always comes out the same.  What you are interested in  is "clamp load".  You've got 5/16 bolts there.  The smallest diameter (weakest link) will ALWAYS be the root diameter, or the cross section between the lowest part of the threads.  In this case, 0.243 inches (much less than 5/16 of an inch.  so each bolt offers 0.046 square inches.  (A LOT less than the 0.076 square inches you'd assume from the nominal dimension of the screw).  150,000psi (150ksi) applied to 0.046 inches gives a THEORETICAL 6900 pounds of clamping force under the bolt.  Realistically that won't happen, that's why there's charts instead of formulas.  The psi for the steel is simply the biggest variable in play.  That's what makes the force number bigger.  All other variables make the force smaller.
    If you look at the root diameter of a fine threaded bolt (which frame bolts all are, with good reason) you'll find it's a good deal larger than a coarse threaded one because the threads are not "cut" as deep.  The area across one of those would be .0.53 inches, so you get a lot more strength.  The fine thread gives the nut a lot more "pull" at any given force.  Less PSI goes into "twisting the bolt off" (remember, force goes into the bolt in EVERY direction, not just the direction you want.  That's why you can't get theoretical clamp loads on most fasteners).  More force goes in a straight line this way.  The black oxide coating helps greatly with this, as well as being less detremental to the outer layer(s) of the parent metal. 
    Then you have the piece it's self.  It's not made of a hardened material, so you have to consider that.  It has to bear all of this force directly under that little raised circle underneath the hex head of a regular bolt.  The bolt can only be just so much harder than the material being joined, otherwise the strength becomes irrelevent because it makes a "dimple", which releases the joint just a couple of thousandths of an inch (which is HUGE when you consider how short the elastic stage of a bolt is).  That's where the flange heads come in.  A larger load bearing area so that softer materials can support a higher clamp load under the bolt head.  Look at when/where Honda (or any other manufacturer) uses these, and where they don't.  (Flange bolts/nuts that is.  They don't use many oxide treated fasteners, and thread pitch is selected based on the job at hand).

    jasong
    When i torqued the grade8 bolts, I did 27 ft/lbs
    If I increase the safety margin, tha calculator says 3/8" bolts. I may redrill for them to be safe.


    "Member what I said above?  The bolts you have might just work?  Well, apparently they did not but I bert they were real close....  I still say that 5/16 frame bolts would be more correct and appropriate, but 3/8 cap screws and standard nuts would prolly get the job done nicely, even if they're not as correct.  I bet they're a lot more available if you don't have a fastener supply place right next door.

    Now before this goes TOO far into better bolts....  Don't forget the original design.  I've got to make some assumptions here without measurement, so without a micrometer and without exacting materials standards right in front of me...  When you step up from the 5/16-18 bolts, (my way or your way) you have a new issue to consider.  If you make the "ears" touch the paddles", then at that point you can stop adding clamp load.  You will technically have more pressure in the joint, but you will no longer be applying additional pressure to the interface between the paddle hub and the axle.  That's where it needs to be.  At that time when the ears make contact, all the extra force you come up with becomes irrelevant to the clamp force at the axle.

    If I were doing this, I'd clamp all I could (without contact at the joints) and from there my goal would be to add friction and/or adhesion in between the axle and the paddle hub for better grip at lower combined clamp loads.  That would involve knowing exactly how the hub fits.  What parts are under what pressure.  The exact ID and the exact OD, the interference fit (which hopefully there is) or any looseness that's taken up by the saw cuts, which sets how much of the internal area can support what part of the clamp load, and what part (at the sides) will impart their own "pinch" on the sides of the axle facing the bolted joints.  Lots of variables still in play and lots of possible solutions to any of them.  But whatever you do, don't let me get you too hung up on the bolts unless your observations indicate that the bolts are actually what needs upgrading.  You do have another key factor in play.


    All I can say is...


    pure genius

    2012 Honda Foreman 500 (SOLD)
    2007 Honda Rancher 420 (SOLD)
    2005 Honda Recon 250 (SOLD)
    #30
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